Beyond The Messaging Connection, Episode 4: Marketing Rule #19

Episode Transcription

[00:00:00] Ryan Chapman: So a lot of people don't know- this is Ryan, by the way- I went to community college for my first two years and then I went and transfer to a UC school, University of California school, because the deal was in California at the time, if you could take the junior college classes and you could get a good enough score then they would automatically let you into the University of California school system.

I did it that way because I started school late. I already had a child and another one on the way when I started going to school full time and working full-time and all that jazz. But one of the toughest classes I took- because I was going pre-dental- was with a guy who taught our organic chemistry class.

The cool thing about the junior college in California was that the classes were super small. So there were probably about 35 kids in this organic chemistry class, which is good because this class was super tough. Organic chemistry is terrible. If you ever have to take it I'm sorry. But it was a hard class. And so I figured I would schmooze a little bit to help [00:01:00] me with my chances of getting a better grade because I needed to pass the class. I didn't want to take it another time. So I got to know the professor pretty well during lab. And one of the things I found out that was super fascinating is that he worked for Baskin Robbins 31 Flavors, which is the ice cream company for those that aren't familiar with it.

And I got talking with him about flavoring chemistry, and he said you will never learn flavoring chemistry in the University. I was like 'well, that seems really weird. It seems like that would be really important.' He says 'it says it is! In fact, it's so valuable and so important that all the secrets of flavoring chemistry are maintained in the corporate environment.' So it's not anything you'd learn in college because nobody will let it go out in the college's contracts binding and all that. So the stuff that's most valuable never made it into college because it's too valuable in college, which is really fascinating.

I kind of feel like small business marketing is much the same. There are no guardians of truth, okay? There's no small business marketing guardian of truth. There [00:02:00] are gurus all over the place, you know, people that are willing to sell you advice and tips for money. But there's always pressure on these gurus to intrigue. You know, something new, bright and shiny. So, and those things that are new and bright and shiny rarely have been tested or verified or seen through and so as a result I'd say most of the advice in the small business marketing world is pretty terrible. Trent, your thoughts?

Trent Chapman: For the most part. There are some people that have... that actually provide real value and not trying to just sell.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, and you'll find- you can discover who they are because everybody's referencing them. So that's one way. But usually should not be the newest guy on the block or the youngest kid or the newest shining star. They're usually stanched, been around for a long time. And the reason why is because the best techniques are largely hidden and must be discovered. So you've got to kind of work your way through them. So even if a guru gives you [00:03:00] some key or secret into them, most of them are not exposed. Like, even the people that do have them- like, I feel like we have some of them through our experience- but people are always a little suspect because we also sell software so they would think sometimes when we're teaching a concept it's just to sell the software. But once they get to know us hopefully they can see past that.

So one of the common myths because of this environment-

Trent Chapman: Maybe we should introduce the episode, Ryan. We jumped right into a story here.

Ryan Chapman: Well, you're actually about to cover it. It's called Marketing Rule #19. I can tell the story about that towards the end but- why it's Marketing Rule # 19, not 1 or 2 or whatever- but we'll get to that. But the reason I hadn't brought it up yet is because I want to cover this myth.

Not a myth in the classical sense but in the modern sense, which means it's a falsehood, it's a fable. And that if you ask for less, you'll get more leads. And we kind of, if you listen to the last episode towards the end, we kind of talked [00:04:00] about this a little bit right, Trent?

Trent Chapman: Yep!

Ryan Chapman: With the noise that happens when you get more leads, but there's this- and the problem with this fable, that if you ask for less you get more-

Trent Chapman: When you say ask for less what you mean by that?

Ryan Chapman: Less contact information, right?

Trent Chapman: Yes, on an order form. Or an opt-in form, I mean.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, if I ask for less, I'm going to get more leads. Now the problem with this is it's true, but it's also false at the same time, okay? So when Trent and I had our training company we had this registration form and we asked for name, email, address- the actual physical address- the office number, the mobile phone, the fax-

Trent Chapman: They had fax numbers back then.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, for our industry, which was real estate, fax still was used. So we asked for all of this stuff, right? Everything. And it was working great! We were getting- and the reason I did that was because we had actually kind of stumbled into one of these people who [00:05:00] actually knows the stuff and they share the stuff that actually works. And so instead of us buying into this common principal people tell you 'oh, just ask for email or if you're really bold, name and email and then you get the best leads.' We said 'no, we're going to ask for everything.' And the reason we did that is because we knew our offer was compelling.

And I think we'll probably get into offer at some point during one of these series and I think we probably have a podcast in the past that covered this but your offer is critical. In fact, I got an interview with Jeb that you'll see on our Fix Your Funnel interview series. So you can look for that coming out in the near future, hopefully. And we talked about offer creation, so that'll be a good one.

But, we had a killer offer. So we were getting tons of leads and then we started to have a situation where the number of leads, as a percentage of visitors, was decreasing. And so you want to keep track of those kind of metrics, but you recognize they're all relative. [00:06:00] But we saw the decrease and so I thought 'well-' I questioned the judgment that we had, right? I said 'well, maybe I should ask for less.' So I reduced that form significantly and leads continue to be down. They didn't go up.

And so I then realized 'oh, no, the real problem was my offer wasn't strong enough.' So Trent and I hashed out a new offer, updated our language and then restored our form to be asking for everything and the dog again. And lo and behold opt-ins went up. So it was more about the offer but that's a common mistake people make is they think 'oh, well, I'm just going to ask for email.'

And you can test this out. Go open up Facebook if you have an account, scroll through, find some sort of ad that's asking for something, click on it, go to their squeeze page and see if they don't ask for just name and email. I'm going to give it, what? Nine to one that they do, right? So why is this such a problem, Trent? Why is it so stupid and I- gosh that's a strong word- but it [00:07:00] is, from my perspective, stupid.

Trent Chapman: Uninformed. For a lot of people it's an uninformed decision.

Ryan Chapman: Uninformed! Okay.

Trent Chapman: Yeah. Well, it comes down to Marketing Rule #19 and this is episode 4 of Beyond The Messaging Connection. I'm Trent Chapman. That's Ryan. And in today's episode we're talking about Marketing Rule #19 and that is know how you will sell before you decide how to lead capture. Now let me dive into that, what that means, but really it comes down to this- If you've read Stephen Covey's book, Highly Effective Habits- number two says begin with the end in mind.

So if I'm selling to a group of people and I know that I need to get them on the phone in order to have a conversation to close them I'm probably gonna lead capture by asking for their phone number. Because I can't really call people based on their email address. So that's what the rule #19 is- know how you will sell before you decide how to lead capture.

Now if I'm going to sell through direct mail, like I need to send them a package in the mail, I'm going to need mailing address. If I'm going to sell through fax or provide information through [00:08:00] fax, need the fax number. If I'm going to call them again or text them I need a phone number. If I'm going to remarket to them I probably need some information, like an email address, that I can use, or phone number I can use, to remarket to them. Or a pixel, on the Facebook pixel or Google pixel. And so I'm going to ask for- I'm going to know about this information that I'm going to need before I actually lead capture. And if I need to email them, of course, I need the email address.

So with what Ryan and I did with our other business, we knew that we want to be able to remind people about an upcoming training that they registered for so we asked for all that- their name, their email, their phone number, their fax number, their mailing address- because we even mailed them stuff as a reminder.

So because we knew in order to get them to show up to our event we needed to remind them in multiple different mediums, we lead captured with name, email, office address, office number, mobile number, fax number- all those things because we knew we had to sell to them or remind them through those mediums. So-

Ryan Chapman: This is, Trent-

Trent Chapman: Decided we would not do those things.

[00:09:00] Ryan Chapman: This is the mistake that a lot of people make and, again, I apologize for saying stupid. I feel strongly about this stuff. But the real problem is that people don't think about the end. So they don't begin with the end in mind. If you haven't read Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People I strongly encourage you to do so. Because the principles that I was- Trent, I was honestly fascinated as we were preparing these episodes for the podcast at how often one of these seven habits came up. Because and, you know, I know you read it as a young man. I remember reading it when I was about 20 and it's just one of those books that hits so deep into our human nature and principles of success that you've got to read it.

As much as people in the entrepreneurial world will say read Think and Grow Rich, which you should, you really should read also Stephen Covey's 7 Habits of Highly Effective People because beginning with the end in mind will save you so much [00:10:00] trouble.

And Trent, how many businesses have we helped where they had just been doing the email thing? And then we got them to think of how they could up their offer so that- and that's the thing is- if you're trying to collect a mailing address you have to have a reason, right? You can't just ask for it. You've gotta have a reason. And so first thing that you do is you go through the list like Trent just did and say 'okay, what are the mediums that we actually need to use in order for us to sell effectively?' So that-

Trent Chapman: And it may not be selling as much as also- and selling is kind of, that term refers to the whole marketing and the sales process maybe. Maybe it's part of our nurture process.

Ryan Chapman: Yes.

Trent Chapman: So maybe I sell by fax, for example, then I might nurture the right information by fax.

Well, so let's qualify that statement too. Because I think, unfortunately, the word 'sell' has some bad connotations because people have some misnomers about what it means. Sell means to help somebody arrive to a point of making a buying decision.

So that [00:11:00] encompasses marketing to an extent but also encorporates, you know, encompasses having that conversation with people. That may be necessary. And understand not every person that comes through a sales process will need to talk to a person in order to make a buying decision. Marketing may have gotten them close enough and so they can just make the buying decision. But a profitable, highly profitable, business will involve someone talking to somebody at some point.

So the question is how do we need to communicate the information that prepares them for the buying decision? And so, like Trent was saying, maybe we need to send them a fax in order to give them something that helps them prepare to make a buying decision. Maybe we need to mail them a package or a book or something to prepare them to make a buying decision. So that's what I'm thinking of when I'm saying sales. Is anything else that you would add, Trent?

No, that's- I just want to make that clear is that, because we don't necessarily ask for the sale maybe by those mediums, but they're going to help in the sales process. In some cases, for example like we mentioned earlier, there's [00:12:00] some products or services that have to be sold by phone. You can't sell until you had a conversation with somebody. So if you're asking just for email-

Ryan Chapman: Let's talk about our training company real quick. Why did we need all this stuff? How did we use the contact information that we gathered?

Trent Chapman: Yeah, as I kind of mentioned a little bit, the main reason was you wanted people to show up to our trainings because by them showing up we knew what our percentage of people that showed up that would actually invest in our training course. And if they invest in the training course, we knew that we could help them and help their customers.

So for us it was really important to get them to show up to the training. If they showed up, sat through the three-hour training that was for free, then they were going to have more success in their business and we were going to have a certain percentage of them invest in our training.

So for us, we would send them a fax to remind them of the event the day before. We did a voice broadcast. We started towards the end doing a text as well. We would also send them several emails right when they registered and then a couple the day before- the day before or the day of- give them the [00:13:00] address, the instructions on how to arrive, sometimes even a link to a map so they could click the link and open their Maps.

So the whole intent we had here was to help them to arrive and be reminded of this event they might have registered for a week or two in advance. So that the day of, they'd already had it scheduled in their calendar. They're ready to show up. They got the email, the text, the phone call and they were ready to show up and be there. And also, we'd mail them a postcard- What's that?

Ryan Chapman: Wouldn't email just have been as effective as all of that?

Trent Chapman: No, and that's the thing that a lot of people assume. That if I email them and they registered they want to show up. That's not the case because we know that one out of five emails gets opened and that's probably not the same as they read them. They clicked it and opened. It was marked as open. A lot of emails get missed and if you're like me, you've got thousands of emails that never get opened. They just get mass deleted because you don't have time to go through every single email.

So that's something you have to remember [00:14:00] is that if you have- in this case, this is a unique experience, right? A live event. Most of you probably don't do live events. But you still have a message you want them to view and content you want them to consume so they can learn more about your products or service to make a buying decision.

Ryan Chapman: I want to go into a little bit like what we actually did. So one of the things that we did even on the Registration and Thank You page is we have a faux-ticket. It was faux because it looked like it had a scannable barcode but really it was the same bar code for everything because I didn't know how to make a unique bar code and-

Trent Chapman: This is back to the late 2008, 2009 era so, you know.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, so and we would ask them to print off, because at that time everybody's using computers probably connected to a printer, especially in our industry. So print off the Thank You page and put that next to their desk. And why would I do that? I wanted- I'm thinking about the sales process. I want to get something that stays in front of them.

So, why did I fax instead of just [00:15:00] email? I wanted another physical thing to get in front of them. Why did we send a postcard instead of just an email? Wanted something physically get in front of them. Why did we text? Because we knew that that was going to be in the right place right time. Because we would send the text the morning of and it would have a link to the maps, you know, so they could be able to get there. We would remind of the time and we'd give them the address and the location.

So we did all these things thinking about what could we do to make it easier for them to arrive at a buying decision? And the first step was sit in the room for three hours. So all this stuff was orchestrated because we were thinking 'what does it take to get somebody to do what we need them to do to get to the buying decision?' Now, your sales process probably isn't nearly as complicated as that.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, but here's the thing- we knew how we were going to have to sell before we set up lead capture. We knew how we were going to have to follow up and nurture the lead to get them to show up before we asked them to fill out a form. Because if you do that in hindsight, you say 'okay, I'm going to ask for an email address and then oh wait, [00:16:00] I should probably text them and call them and send them a letter and do all these other things. Well, I don't have all those mediums now because I only asked for their email address.' So your opportunity to get more information is usually passed. It's a lot harder to get more information out of them later versus just asking for it upfront when you have a compelling offer right there.

Ryan Chapman: Okay. So a lot of people probably aren't going to have our sales process that we have in that compnay.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, you don't need all that stuff.

Ryan Chapman: But they probably- there's probably quite a few people that will listen that do webinars, right? And what's the most frequent piece of information asked for? What's a typical registration form for a webinar?

Trent Chapman: Email or name and email.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, and some- it's become more common in the last five years to have an optional cell phone number. It's almost always optional, right? Now, I want you to know this about webinars: if you wanted to double your webinar sales- if you're doing a webinar and then you make an offer at the end and people buy or that you make an offer and at the end people set an [00:17:00] appointment- if you wanted to double that outcome there's one thing that you can do that will double that outcome. You send a text message. It's not an email because email won't work. It's not a phone call because people won't answer. You send a text message to people that attended the webinar, but didn't take the course of action that you wanted them to take.

I call them should-have-boughts because they did everything a buyer would do except for spend money or set an appointment and then again what your call to action is. And you just ask them one question. Say 'I noticed you got on the webinar today, but you didn't do X. Is there a question that you have that I can answer for you? Or is there a reason why?' You could ask either of those things.

If you just did that you would double your sales or double your appointments. Because, like Trent said in an earlier episode, there's usually one thing that holds someone back from taking that next step or from making a buying decision.

Trent Chapman: If you make it easy for them to ask that question, they'll usually ask that question.

Ryan Chapman: Okay, so why can't most people do this immediately? [00:18:00] Because they don't ask for the cell phone number and they don't get permission to text people before the webinar.

Trent Chapman: Mmhmm. That's the other thing that you didn't even cover, though. If I know that I want people to show up to my webinar- because webinars that are like register for a day or three days or four days out, they don't have the best attendance because people forget, right? Before you're doing webinar like this that text reminder is going to increase attendance and the question after the event itself is going to increase sales.

Ryan Chapman: So, but the point being you got to think about well, now that you know that strategy, 'what would I need to do at the time of lead capture in order to allow me to have that option?'

Trent Chapman: Marketing Rule #19 says you need to know how you're going to sell before you lead capture. So if you need to text them you're going to need permission to text and their phone number.

Ryan Chapman: So one of the beautiful things about a text message lead capture, there's two ways, primarily, to do this. One is you use a web form. So if you do web form, there's a couple of gotchas you gotta look out for: number one is people don't generally type in their phone number in the format you need in order [00:19:00] for you to text. They do it in the local format.

Now, the United States and Canada, that's okay because our number formats are fairly uniform. Which means that, you know, you've got the area code, the local code and then the last four digits. In other words you got a ten digit number. And so they're probably not going to put it in without the area unless you're in a locale. Like I'm in Tucson and the weird part about Tucson is it's one area code for the whole city. And so a lot of people don't even bother to include the 520 area code. They just go straight to the last seven digits. So if you have a web form where people are entering the last seven digits you won't be able to text them. So, that being said, that's the one downside of collecting a phone number in the webform is data entry can be all over the place.

If you're in a country like the United Kingdom or Australia, for example, there is a totally different way that people type in the number and it can create all sorts of issues to get it formatted properly.

We've got tools that help with [00:20:00] our companies, but that's neither here nor there. The point being web form has that. And also in countries like the United States and some countries where they have regulations on texting, like Canada as well, you need express permission, which means they have to explicitly say 'yes, you may send me a text message.' If you're collecting that phone number through a web form.

Trent Chapman: And you don't want to have a pre checkbox or have it hidden in the small-

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, those things are not allowed and you have to kind of give them some indication. I'm going to be send you text messages about the webinar and after the webinar. So you have to kind of do that in order for you to be in safe territory with people.

Trent Chapman: So are you saying there's too much work around this? I should probably just not text people, Ryan?

Ryan Chapman: No, those are just things you got to do on the web form. And so a lot of people don't understand that so they'll make some mistakes and they kind of close off that option even though they think they're opening the option.

The other method for collecting permission to text people and their cell phone number is by keyword. S, for example, I haven't said this yet, but you could go ahead and text LEARN [00:21:00] to (949) 835-5300 and get a free copy, it's going to be a PDF and an audio version of the book, The Messaging Connection. And so you can get that book. But that call to action allows me to know what your cell phone number is, to know the context. And now with that information, theoretically, I could call you, I could text you, I could remarket to you by using your phone number to identify you on Facebook or Instagram. Now nobody's going to want to text in to us.

But the problem is most most marketers are leery of marketing. But what I'll tell you that will help you to say 'yes, I'm cool doing that' is that we don't text people that don't want text messages. So, in other words, just because we can doesn't mean we will.

And this is important for you as well. If you go back to our previous episode, we talked about seeing people as humans instead of moneybags. That means you're going to be respectful of how you interact with them and you're going to set expectations. And you're going to set those expectations clearly. [00:22:00] You're not going to hide or kind of make it, you know, slimy or anything like that. You're gonna be real clear about here's what, you know, here's what I'm going to send you and this is what I'm going to do. And you're going to do exactly what you say.

And by doing that you're going to make deposits in their attention currency account with you, which means they're going to welcome your future messages. They're going to find value in them because you're actually thinking about them and their problems instead of you and your money. And so all those things are going to lend to a better experience. So we tend to have no problem with people texting in because they get a feel for who we are pretty quick in our marketing and they can understand 'oh, these guys aren't going to just be spamming me. They're going to be respecting me and they're gonna respect my time and communication. So the questions, the text messages, the things that we do are going to be showing that respect.

But that's the beautiful part about the key word, which means texting like a keyword like LEARN to a number, (949) 835-5300. I mean, on one side, that's really easy to memorize and so it makes it great for you as a [00:23:00] business owner. You don't have to, you know, think about a website address or is it /whatever. You just can remember a simple keyword and the phone number.

Trent Chapman: It's like a walking webform. You're a walking web form.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, you can throw it in a podcast like we have here. You can put it into a video. You can put it on a social media post. You put our blog post. And those are things that we do.

Trent Chapman: So, going back to they can text in to register by text message for our webinar- finish going over that thought.

Ryan Chapman: So, now if they text in to register for the webinar I can still, in an automated conversation, collect their name and email, which is what most people do through a web form. But in the same process, I've collected their cell phone number and have opened the door to texting.

And so one of the strategies that I'll do with that with business is I'll teach them- and we do this one ourselves- is we'll say okay for example text REGISTER to (760) 621-8199. So, that's another phone number, another keyword [00:24:00] and then they register for a webinar. So when they do that, they'll ask for their name and their email address and then I'll have automation go ahead and register them for the webinar. Well on the last text message of that automated conversation what I'll do is I'll ask an open-ended question which is why did you register for the webinar today?

And that encourages then a conversation to start. And so what I've done is I've primed the pump by asking someone why they wanted to register. Even if they don't respond I've got them thinking about my webinar at a deeper level than if they just register. So I've done a few things to start setting the hook, so to speak, to get them to want to show up to the webinar. Now I can do a pre-webinar reminder text message. Maybe it has a link to attend the webinar and then I'll finally- because I've collected the phone number for this webinar I know that if they attend the webinar but they don't take the action I'm gonna invite them to do, I could send them a message and say 'hey I noticed you attended the [00:25:00] webinar, but you didn't take the action I invited you to do. Was there some question that you had or concern that I could address?' But all that's possible because I thought about the end before the beginning. And if you don't know to think about that, then you'll miss out on so many opportunities.

A classic example of this, Trent, is Frank Kern who was working with one of our partners, Ross Walker. And him and Ross worked out an idea to do that exact thing- to ask a question. He did it in his way, using his verbiage and his approach to his market, but he ended up doubling sales. So instead of doing a million dollars in sales they did two million dollars in sales as a result of just doing that-

Trent Chapman: From webinars.

Ryan Chapman: From webinars! And they couldn't have done it if they didn't know to ask for the right information in the beginning. So that's why it's so critical to think through 'how to am I going to sell?' You know? 'How am I going to communicate with people so that they can be able to make a good buying decision?' A good buying decision means [00:26:00] they're evaluating on more things than just price, right? They're evaluating on things are actually critical to them getting what they are after. And so, I think it's just really important that you think through that process because if you do, the world opens up to you. And now we can form a long-term business, that has good margins and does well because we're not cutting ourselves off at the knees because we have to sell by email.

Trent Chapman: Let's talk about some of the different mediums, Ryan, and where people would want to use them. We kind of touched on this a little bit earlier, but- like, for example, direct mail. I know that direct mail is less and less used which actually is kind of a good thing because the more people shun it the more actually becomes more effective.

Ryan Chapman: If you go check your mailbox, you still get junk mail, right?

Trent Chapman: Local mail, junk mail, but not-

Ryan Chapman: The best thing you can do is go look at that junk mail and see what everybody's doing because whatever they're doing- I can't remember who taught me this principle, but- just go the opposite direction, right? If they're all doing number 10 mailers, [00:27:00] which is your typical letter mailer, then do a greeting card. Because the last thing you want to do is what everybody else is doing because everybody else is getting minor results.

So that comes from this principle called the Pareto Principle, which you probably heard is the 80/20 rule, right? This is 80% of the results come from 20% of the actions. But really what it is, is it's a distribution that finds itself everywhere. Like into the stars and nature and human interaction. Everywhere. What it is is it says that wherever the bulk of the people are is where the lowest results are coming from. Or where the lowest energy is being produced or whatever. And there's just a small number that are producing all the the results and all the energy. And so whenever you see a bulk of people doing something just go the opposite direction with that.

So if I'm using direct mail, I see a bulk of people are doing the same thing I want to do something totally different. And so that's where, like, I would- I mail a book, right? We, as part of our business, we mail The Messaging Connection out to new test-

Trent Chapman: To new leads, yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, and [00:28:00] new- some leads. And so that's a way to stand out and prepare people for a buying decision.

Trent Chapman: Now, for some businesses direct mail may not be a good result or provide a good result, may not be a good option. But for many businesses, I think they should take a second look at it.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, and all you have to do is use it judiciously, right? So I wouldn't use it the same as I use email. Email is relatively inexpensive, not very well consumed, but easy to do. So, I might be a little more prolific in emails, still paying attention to the attention currency concept, but you know, I'm going to send a bunch more emails than I am direct mail. But direct mail in the right place can be very effective. So, from our perspective- and I guess we're kind of pulling back the curtain here, Trent, so hopefully this is for our benefit and doesn't hurt us-, but we don't view when someone signs up for our software as the sale. For us the sale occurs maybe six months down the road when we know that they've actually started using [00:29:00] the software and it's become an integral part of their business.

So, when we send out a book, it's usually after they've been around for a couple weeks. And when we send that book out that's part of our helping them become a long-term customer.

Trent Chapman: Trying to confirm the sale.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, because the sale hasn't really- it started but it hasn't finished.

Trent Chapman: Right. So for us, when a user of our software is actually using it- six months is probably longer, you know, than normal- but usually within 30 to 60 days we're going to have a couple of our strategies implemented in their business and then we know that they're going to stick for long term because they're going to have success if they're using the strategies that we know work. So that's, for us, direct mail is used in the sales process.

Ryan Chapman: So I'm pointing that out to say that's probably a more expensive piece of direct mail, but it's used at a point at which the prospect has identified themselves as very serious about becoming a long-term customer.

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: And so that's where Trent's saying use it but maybe use it where it makes the most sense.

So email. I [00:30:00] don't know that we need to cover that much because we've covered that quite a bit in episode... two?

Trent Chapman: One or two. Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Yeah, but let's go to faxing, Trent. I don't know that there's much on faxing because faxing isn't as common today. There are some few industries and you'll know it if it's your-

Trent Chapman: Yeah, if it's your industry, you know, 'yeah, we still use fax machines.' I was surprised recently someone told me to fax them something. I said 'can email it to you?' They said 'no, our company only allows faxing.' So I had to pull out our login to our eFax to figure out how to send a fax again.

So that's very uncommon but if your industry does it you'll know that and that's something you want to ask for in your opt-in form if you know that's a way you could communicate with them and, you know, get more information to their physical world through a fax machine or maybe through their email inbox. A lot of times if they have an email fax or eFax coming through, they usually of pay more attention to those than a traditional email.

Ryan Chapman: Now, the real advantage to fax is the same for me as direct mail, which is you're getting into the physical world. So we're always [00:31:00] concerned about getting into the physical world because marketing is about consumption not delivery. So that's an important concept to remember- marketing is not about sending messages it's about having those messages consumed by a prospect. Ideally someone who is a qualified, you know, really you would want-

Trent Chapman: That would fit your service or product. Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: So remarketing is the next one that we want to talk about. Remarketing is really cool in many ways because it takes advantage of the negative human nature. But I know that sounds bad when I'm saying it but the fact is I don't think there's anybody that says, you know, 'I really need to be spending more time on social media.' And yet they do! And so remarketing allows us to be able to put ads in front of people as not as an advertising medium but as a marketing and sales medium. And this is where a lot of people miss the boat because they will like- do you know anybody, Trent, that doesn't or has not tried Facebook ads at some point?

Trent Chapman: I guess there's some [00:32:00] businesses that they don't feel like it's a good fit for them for them. Most businesses have tried some bit of boosted posts or Facebook marketing.

Ryan Chapman: That is advertising. So that's trying to get people even aware that your business exists. But once somebody has raised their hand in some way remarketing becomes a way of doing marketing.

And so if you get a cell phone number, for example, and the email address, you got just about a hundred percent chance of identifying that person on Instagram and Facebook. Well, that's pretty powerful because now you can put your ad in front of them not as an advertisement, but as an actual marketing piece, so it's communicating something that's going to drive them towards a buying decision versus just becoming aware that your company and your solution exists.

And so that's a pretty powerful one. The downside to that is, you know, it is hidden within the social feed and so you've got to really make sure your ad's powerful in order for it to stand out and make a difference in terms of delivering your message to the person. But if you [00:33:00] do it right it can be a relatively inexpensive way of getting that message that's not being seen in the email inbox seen.

And again, marketing is about consumption not delivery. Not attempts at delivery.

Trent Chapman: And we often think about well, what is the message at week 1 or week 2 or week 3 of being a lead that would be good for them to see? And there are strategies where you can dynamically adjust what ads are showing and remarketing based on how long they've been in your lead database. And so that's a bit of more advanced strategy, but that's something that's also possible is you can do time-based or action-based, moving them from remarketing list A to be marketing list B automatically. So that's some really cool stuff there.

Last, let's talk about phone. So, calling and texting, Ryan. We've kind of gone over this, but let's dive a little bit deeper. Advantages, disadvantages of calling and texting.

Ryan Chapman: Well, from my perspective, calling has a huge advantage in terms of transmitted information. And we're trying- when we're talking about getting someone to a [00:34:00] buying decision being able to hear the pauses and the concerns in their voice is very powerful for the sales person to be able to know, 'okay, what information do I need to relay to this prospect in order for them to make a buying decision?' And so, calling is great. The disadvantage of calling is nobody answers their phone anymore.

Trent Chapman: Not nobody but most people.

Ryan Chapman: Well, why don't they answer, Trent?

Trent Chapman: Usually because they don't trust you or don't know you yet. So that's where using texting as a way to open the conversation often leads to the opportunity for a phone call that is actually productive.

Ryan Chapman: So when you're saying that are you saying they don't recognize your number as well? Is that-

Trent Chapman: Maybe they don't recognize a number or maybe they don't have any relationship with you so they don't have your number saved so they don't-

Ryan Chapman: I think the number one reason I don't answer is because I don't recognize the number.

Trent Chapman: Yeah. I'm not saying they don't trust you in that they don't trust you specifically but if someone calls me and they're not my contact database, I usually don't answer the first time unless I've texted with them before. I know the number. [00:35:00] And that's usually the advantage that comes from starting with texting and then rolling into a phone conversation is that 'hey, I'm gonna go ahead and call you in ten minutes. Let's talk about these three questions that you asked.'

Ryan Chapman: You know what's really cool about calling to a mobile number now, Trent? Is it's about a hundred percent of phones that you call are smartphones. Just about every one of them has some sort of machine learning going on. So trying to gather information and then make it available at important times. And if you text somebody to their mobile number, right? And on their mobile number you text them 'hey, this is Trent Chapman with Fix Your Funnel' at the beginning of that text the phone is extracting that information. So even if they haven't installed your contact information-

Trent Chapman: vCard.

Ryan Chapman: Which is called the vCard, yeah, Trent- then it will give a suggestion when you call saying hey, maybe Trent Chapman.

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Well, that becomes super valuable for calling because the number one reason people don't answer is because they don't know [00:36:00] who it is.

Trent Chapman: Yeah. You've probably experienced that if that's happened to you. Probably experienced that where you see like 'how does my phone know this is Trent calling me? I don't have him in my contacts.' And that's how it works. It's looking at your text message saying 'oh, this came from someone who introduced themselves as Trent from the same phone number.'

Ryan Chapman: It can also sometimes extract out of emails as well. So just be aware of that because you can step- again, this is thinking about the end from the beginning. And if you do that, then you can start doing some things that will help you have an advantage to actually getting your message relayed to the person so they can make a buying decision. So, Trent, you want to finish up on texting? What are the advantages and disadvantages of texting?

Trent Chapman: I feel like we've gone over this quite a bit, but I'll just kind of highlight. For us, we know that the advantage of texting is that consumption of the message, like we mentioned earlier, it's not about how many people get the message delivered to them or sent to them, it's how many actually open it and read it. And consumption of your message is much [00:37:00] higher through texting than by email or by even direct mail.

So that's the highest consumption medium right now and everyone has a phone number that's text enabled, pretty much, if they're in a civilized world. And so if you're marketing and selling to them they probably have a smartphone and it probably does texting as a native thing. They don't download an app, they don't have to have an extra special, you know, account they log into. Their phone number and their phone have that all enabled by default.

So that's the advantages- is I can pretty much text almost every lead. Again, granted I get permission, I ask the proper options or have them text me first. The disadvantage of texting is that it does require you to, in most cases, to get the opt-in. I would not have used this medium- a lot of people are not very smart with how they handle this and they'll rent or buy a list of a thousand contacts and send out a text broadcast thinking this is smart marketing. That is not at all what you should be doing if you want a long-term business. [00:38:00] If you're doing a pump and dump, like we talked about in our last episode, episode 3, where you don't care about people, you're just caring about making money off of people, then you can try that and then you'll get your number blocked and maybe some FCC complaints.

So that's the downside of text is you can't just-

Ryan Chapman: And I don't even think-

Trent Chapman: Not even a downside, really.

Ryan Chapman: Right? That wouldn't even work.

Trent Chapman: You can't be ignorant.

Ryan Chapman: Let's talk about- this can kind of be towards the close here but- how do you open the door to conversations on texting? Because that's really what you've got to do. If you did the thing that you said where someone illegally purchased the- because that's, you know, or purchase lists and then illegally starts texting people without their permission- they haven't opened the door to texting.

Trent Chapman: No.

Ryan Chapman: They just got phone numbers. So how do you open the door to texting? So you're not annoying.

Trent Chapman: If you want a positive response, and not a negative response and lawsuits, the best way to do that is to be respectful of people. So what we talk about is having people text in a keyword and going through a short automated conversation where you ask for their name, their email. We already have [00:39:00] the phone number, right? Because they already texted us first. We catch that right away.

So we just ask for any additional information and maybe an open ended question at the end that leads to a conversation by text. That's probably one of the more popular ones If you're doing webinars, speaking from a stage, doing a video where you want to have a call to action in the video or, like in this case, the podcast that we're doing. We have a call to action that's a text-in call to action. Those are all great ways to use a keyword conversation and because I can use different keywords for different situations. That way I know where they're coming from and what information they're asking for so I can provide the right thing to them.

So if you text in the word LEARN to our number, which I don't have memorized, Ryan. It's (949)-

Ryan Chapman: 949-835-5300.

Trent Chapman: I should memorize that. Anyway, if you text the word LEARN then that's going to put you into that category of someone interested in the book and we're going to send you the book. I could also do a different one with a different word and have it deliver a different PDF or something of value we've created for you.

So that's one of the benefits of doing that [00:40:00] is you open the door to a conversation.

Ryan Chapman: So I like to imagine that if you looked at laws and regulations they're a circle, let's say a small circle. And then outside of that is a larger circle which has what's smart to do from a psychological marketing, relationship-building standpoint.

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: And if you do the smart, psychological, relationship-building thing you avoid going into territory where you get into legal trouble. And so I'm always thinking how do I psychologically open that door? And I feel like what you said with the automated conversation it gets people going 'oh, I can text with this number.' And then the open-ended question at the end of it, like you were talking about, that makes people see 'oh, this leads to live interaction. So not only is there this automated potential but there's also this interacting with a live human potential which means I can get answers to questions that I have. So if this person or this company texts [00:41:00] me in the future I know I can actually get a response from somebody.' Well, that's the psychological door turn that we need to have happen. We need to turn that doorknob and open the door. And I feel like the automated messaging is turning the doorknob and the live texting is opening the door.

So you want to get someone to a point where they're live-text interacting with you as soon as possible. Because then that says 'oh, this is a convenient, fast way for me to interact with this company.' And that can be the difference between them choosing to do business with you and somebody else, all things being equal.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, and once people start texting you it's just a matter of time before you answer the right questions they have. So it's a much faster way of getting them to that buying decision and being able to see and understand the value that you provide. And then often times, like we mentioned earlier, if it needs a phone call having that conversation by text can easily lead to a phone call that they're going to answer because now they're interested.

Ryan Chapman: I feel like people generally are [00:42:00] afraid to talk to sales people because they know that silver tongue.

Trent Chapman: Yeah.

Ryan Chapman: Sell them, right?

Trent Chapman: Get them to buy something they don't really want and they don't want to do that.

Ryan Chapman: And so the texting acts as a buffer, okay? It kind of gives them this safe place in which they can feel the person out, feel the company out and see like 'okay, is this person really interested in helping me?' And once they feel reassured, which can happen through the texting conversation, then they go 'hey, let's just get on the phone and that way we can speed this process up.' And so that's the beautiful part.

If you do know 'hey, phone calls are critical to our process' texting is what leads to phone calls more than anything else. And I just, for me, it's been fascinating to see how big a difference that is.

Trent Chapman: Yeah, and that's really been the key to growing a lot of our businesses is opening that door either by having them fill out a web form and saying 'yes, I want this information that you're sending to me by text and by email' and then starting that conversation with them and asking questions providing [00:43:00] value. And making sure that we're always depositing into their attention currency with the offers- err, not the offers- with the information and the videos and content we're providing. We're trying to increase that perceived value that we're giving to them so that we can be looked upon as someone that's welcome versus someone that's annoying, just trying to ask for money.

That's really where you want to be in your business is 'how can I continue to use all these mediums?' Think about what mediums are appropriate for your business. Think about 'if I use this medium what kind of content or things can I provide to either give them value or open the conversation, by text or by phone, so that I can lead to more sales of my product or service?' And, of course on the back end of that, going back to our last episode, you're really trying to provide value for them. You're not just trying to sell them, you're actually trying to provide value. You understand what you offer brings value to them. If you're doing it with that intent and that mindset increasing your sales is a good thing and that's what we want to help you do.

Ryan Chapman: That's awesome. Well, hope you guys enjoy this [00:44:00] episode. Again, this is Beyond The Messaging Connection. We're going deeper into the topics in the Messaging The Connection, the book. If you don't already have a copy, I invite you to get a free copy by texting LEARN to (949) 835-5300. If you're not quite ready for that level of interaction with us by all means you can go purchase a copy at Amazon. It's The Messaging Connection. But if you'd like a free audio and digital copy...

And the reason we want the digital copy along with the audio copy- the audio's probably easier to consume for a lot of people because they just listen to it. But the digital copy allows you to be able to reference some of the things that we mention in the book that I felt like were more valuable to actually see versus just hear. And so there's some techniques and some strategies you might want to look at those questions. Think about how we're doing those-

In fact, that's what we're going to cover in the next episode is keyword-driven conversations. So we've been talking about these automated conversations, but there's a lot of little nuances to them. So I want [00:45:00] you to totally understand how those work, how you can deliver them the most effective way. Because we've seen people try and use keyword conversations to generate leads from the stage for example, and just fail miserably and so they make bad assumptions about the effectiveness of that. But it's just because they didn't know what they were doing and we're going to teach all that in the next episode, kind of get into why it works the way it does.

Trent ChapmanThank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate it. We look forward to sharing with you in episode 5, about keyword-driven conversations.